Katelin entered chat.
Katelin: HI
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Hi Kate
Corenna: Hey Kate
Pluto the Ψiioniic: my friend said the game was kind of lame
Pluto the Ψiioniic: heya kate
Ravyn the sleep deprived: it's OK...but it took me 4 different classes to find one I liked
Corenna: What game?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: there are only 4 classes to each side
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Star wars The Old Republic
Pluto the Ψiioniic: SWTOR
Corenna: Thank you Ravyn, Pluto's acronym would have confused me
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Hi Kate, I saw a bunch of us were on, so I thought I''d grab the chance to talk
Katelin: ok but I am headed to bed quite soon
Pluto the Ψiioniic: lol
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK...perhaps if you give us your main concern and why, we can think about a compromise
Uragon entered chat.
Uragon: Hello!
Corenna: Hey Ura
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Hi ura, saw a bunch of us on and thought I'd take the chance
Pluto the Ψiioniic: hey Ura
Katelin: My main concern is that when communications are not made "public" within the cabal for application processing we are putting ourselves in a position to loose sight of the overall goings on if for example Ravyn or Corenna are absent
Uragon: Kate actually had to tell me you were on, Steam seems not to poke me about chat while playing a game.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: maybe I am misunderstanding public then
Corenna: For that I like Ravyn's idea. Then we have a list of all applications that are currently in process, and so any of the founders can go from the list to see what needs to be done
Ravyn the sleep deprived: by public, do you mean between the Founders?
Katelin: Public meaning Cabal Members
Corenna: On this list we could even put whether they need an interview, a vote, a second vote, etc
Ravyn the sleep deprived: My feeling is, that if we make applications public, and intervies public, then the whole cabal should get a vote
Corenna: That way members can see that without knowing everything, so we could be alerted about possible concerns with members as well
Pluto the Ψiioniic: that would take far too much time and effort though
Katelin: A vote witha time limit, that still contains at least 3 founders yes votes is a good idea in my opinion.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I do like the idea of a checklist though
Corenna: No, she means cabal members all vote
Katelin: To make ALL members vote in a time period will not work - just like asking all founders to vote in a 2 day period will not work
Pluto the Ψiioniic: oh so you only mean the recruitment people would vote on it?
Uragon: So, a vote that all members can vote on, but with a requirement for at least three founders to have voted.
Katelin: Yes Ura, and within a set time period.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I like the idea of the checklist, with all members viewing, but interviews and applications and interviews private
Corenna: I'm agreed with Ravyn. I also think only founders should vote
Katelin: I dont understand how that would work without needing a lot of manual input, Ravyn.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: The checklist is just showing public the process
Ravyn the sleep deprived: you have a name
Ravyn the sleep deprived: of the applicant
Corenna: Well manual input isn't a big deal. I mean, it'd be nice for myself and Ravyn anyway, considering it will keep us on the ball with what's going on.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: that indicates we have received their application
Uragon: I'm concerned about you actually dropping the ball if there is too much private communication involved.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: under their name we write Interview in process
Ravyn the sleep deprived: when done...edit to compled
Ravyn the sleep deprived: then add vote in process
Corenna: The only communication that would be private would be between us and the applicant. Everything else would only be as private as founders-only
Corenna: Except the checklist
Ravyn the sleep deprived: change to completed when voting is finished...with check your mailbox
Corenna: Also, conversations between us and the applicant could be posted on the applicant's thread for all founders to see
Ravyn the sleep deprived: On the checklist we ask that members look at this list and PM either Cor or I with recommendations or concerns
Corenna: So that it's not even necessarily that private
Ravyn the sleep deprived: we then add those to the applicant's page
Uragon: How do you guarantee that after you sent a PM, their response gets back to the recruitment team in case the original sender is AFK for a while?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: mass PM unless it has bugs in it
Corenna: Like I said, we post it on their application, and we can say all PM must be posted, even if it's like, "Hey, what's taking so long?"
Uragon: Mass PMs don't wore reliably for that, the reply button replies by default to sender only.
Corenna: I don't like mass PM's, they confuse me. I'm okay with posting on the app
Corenna: But just for founders to see
Ravyn the sleep deprived: yes, on the applicant's file
Uragon: Problem being that the applicant can't see their own file.
Corenna: This would be done immediately after a PM, so that it doesn't get lot and if something happens, you all know where to go from there
Ravyn the sleep deprived: On the checklist...it would say, check your inbox please
Corenna: The file isn't for applicants, it's for us. Just like the boardroom isn't for members, it's for us
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Cor and I are thinking of asking more personal questions in interviews
Ravyn the sleep deprived: for example: What other hobbies do you have
Uragon: My main concern being a response from the applicant, not the PM from us to them. That part will work, but if the applicant responds and the responsible recruiter is gone for two weeks then that stalls the process for them.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: etc., that maybe the applicant wouldn't want posted in public
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I check my email everyday, and I get messages in my reg email, that I have a PM
Corenna: Well, if we leave we can pass the buck to another founder and tell the applicant if they have a concern, they can contact X person
Corenna: Or even we have public boards, we can perhaps make a thread for applicants if they have questions
Uragon: You're assuming no emergencies happening here.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: treu, but then we could ask someone to cover
Pluto the Ψiioniic: be kinda funny if emergencies happened to both
Uragon: Emergencies sometimes don't allow for that. I know if someone in the family died, we might suddenly be vanishing for a week without a trace...
Corenna: Like I said, we can have a public thread for them to ask questions
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I guess for me, I am always in contact with my email...my phone alerts me
Corenna: Instead of PMs, we can direct them there if need be
Corenna: I just don't see how communicating with an applicant = all members should see their apps
Uragon: I don't see what your problem with that is, to be honest. It's pretty much standard procedure in most guilds.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: it's not so much the application as the interview
Uragon: The interview doesn't need to be public or disclosed at all.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: because i assume the interview to be more in depth
Pluto the Ψiioniic: i don't remember interviews being suggested as public?
Corenna: Well, I don't like the application being public before they're accepted
Katelin: They werent.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: that was my assumption, it was all public, plus discussion of why or why not we wanted to vote the person in
Katelin: I dont like the idea of communication failing, that an application process gets screwed up and that we look bad for not being able to handle recruitment.
Corenna: I was planning on our dicussions of applicants being on their application. This shouldn't be public, and I don't know how we can get around that.
Pluto the Ψiioniic: well why wouldn't all threads be visible by founders so that we can pick up the ball if someone goes dark?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK...so let me see If I am understanding this
Pluto the Ψiioniic: unless its a secret project like the failed ouro puzzle
Ravyn the sleep deprived: one public thread has application form
Uragon: The whole *process* is designed to be transparent, but not that all information be shared. But enough that the process can happen publically.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: one private thread has interview and voting?
Katelin: Yes in teh "Personnel" area -
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Can we have the application form got to two different places?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: automatically?
Katelin: Yes
Uragon: I'd personally be happy for the interview to not be posted at all. I honestly would and should trust every recruiter to use good judgement regarding the Q&A sessions.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: So then in private, we would post transcript of interview. yes or no vote and comments and communication?
Corenna: Personally I'm just not comfortable with members seeing applications before they are accepted, despite it being standard procedure in other guilds. But I guess that's just me.
Katelin: If that was what was decided - yep possible
Ravyn the sleep deprived: then on public forum, we would post that a pm has been sent...final vote etc?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: would that be where our members would post their opinions of the applicant?
Katelin: Or to use that thread to communicate the "scheduled" things with the applicant and then for PM only when questions that cant be public
Katelin: Why should they state their opinions in a thread?
Corenna: Because we are making their application public before acceptance, why wouldn't they state their opinion?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I thought the point of having the application public was so that members could chime in
Corenna: What's the point otherwise?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Also if an applicant is denied, would we then move the public application elsewhere?
Katelin: It is someones application, it is used to schedule times for meetings and organise the process. Opinions there would be not in line with our cabal policies
Katelin: Why not just close it?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I suppose that would work, I thought it would be nice to have all the applications of current members together and not muddled with rejected applications
Uragon: Opinions could easily be voiced in a different matter, maybe even by PM to founders or through the contact form to address all of us.
Corenna: Okay. Can we make a sub forum that is visible to applicants and not all members?
Uragon: Subforums and the likes for past applications are pretty easy to implement.
Corenna: So that we can schedule with them on this thread etc but current members can't see it?
Katelin: But any old applicant can read it who has got a stalled application and may not join us?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: now I am really confused
Corenna: Move them into initiate or another rank if they are denied
Corenna: This is what I don't understand
Uragon: I think you're trying to solve a social problem technically or with regulations.
Uragon: Maybe even a social problem we might not even have.
Corenna: You want all members to view it, and applicants... Applicants who are denied could see that too.
Corenna: So the concern with previous applicants still applies.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: yes...that was why I was confused
Katelin: You just suggested just applicants.
Corenna: No, with having applications public to all
Katelin: If you are including applicants, why deny cabal members from reading it? That wasnt logical to me
Uragon: Applicants who are denied will definitely not be able to see anything else than the general public would see.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I think Cor meant it's own area
Ravyn the sleep deprived: available to applicants and members
Corenna: Just applicants
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Ok
Uragon: Not happy with excluding members -- why?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: for scheduling and such?
Corenna: Right, for scheduling
Katelin: Sorry, I don't understand.
Corenna: To me I'd prefer they introduce themselves. I just don't understand why members need to see it if they can't comment, can't vote, can't really have any say in what goes on with the application
Uragon: Why would they not be able to do that?
Corenna: Because we just said they can't!
Uragon: Not being able to post on a thread (for concerns that the members might be abusive) doesn't mean they can't raise issues by other non-disruptive methods.
Corenna: Yes. But that would be through PM.
Uragon: As I said, the whole "causing drama" thing is I think a social problem you can't solve through technical means.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK..Application sent to public Forum and one to Founders. The Public is used for scheduling, and eventually "Hellos.. (Which I thought the intro thread would be used for). This would alert all members to possible conflicts or nominations) In the Founder forum: Application, interview, voting discussion and final results
Corenna: It's not about drama.
Corenna: It just seems pointless for them to see the whole application when they could just see their name on a checklist
Corenna: Especially if they have no say in the application process truly
Pluto the Ψiioniic: they could review it
Corenna: Why?
Corenna: You mean applicants?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: cause theres always that answer you want to change....not sure how they would do it
Uragon: Why not?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: yeah applicants
Maxime entered chat.
Katelin: Hi Xee
Uragon: Hiya!
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Hi Xee
Pluto the Ψiioniic: oh hey Xee
Maxime: Heya!
Maxime waves around
Pluto the Ψiioniic: nice name change....hardly recognized you
Ravyn the sleep deprived: comment about my above post?
Maxime: Yeah, I'm sneaky like that
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK..Application sent to public Forum and one to Founders. The Public is used for scheduling, and eventually "Hellos.. (Which I thought the intro thread would be used for). This would alert all members to possible conflicts or nominations) In the Founder forum: Application, interview, voting discussion and final results
Ravyn the sleep deprived: If a member has a concern, they are urged to PM a founder
Ravyn the sleep deprived: which would then be placed in the private forum
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I mean Founder forum
Uragon: I would see the "member admin tool" to be posting mainly to the "public" thread, so whenever an app gets processed further there is an automatic update to that.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I'm good with that...easy enough to edit the thread and write: Interview scheduled for:
Uragon: That's one of the reasons I wasn't happy with PMs besides possible "disconnects" of a recruiter. Can't automate PMs reasonably.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Interview completed
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Vote in Process
Ravyn the sleep deprived: etc
Uragon: Would this process then be good for everyone?
Maxime: Is the entire process outlined since I logged in the convo? (otherwise, I can't answer your question, obviously )
Pluto the Ψiioniic: pretty much, what about the subforum thing we talked about earlier?
Katelin: I think it sounds like a reasonable compromise and good base to work forwards from. Whatever we all decide on now might not fulfill everything we need, but it can always be elaborated on as you work with recruitment and see which processes need additional thinking
Maxime: I have one question
Maxime: (btw, thanks Ravyn for summing up the outcome so far )
Uragon: Denied applications would wander into a "mostly invisible" trashcan for very restricted access. Accepted ones could move to a different "archive".
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I can write up what I posted above...and we can discuss in the forum
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I'm good with that'
Maxime: Ravyn wrote:
"If a member has a concern, they are urged to PM a founder"
But again, that runs the same risk of dropping the ball. If the concern is PMed to a founder who can't / doesn't take the message in a timely fashion, that concern won't be relayed for the recruitement process.
How can we solve that technicality?
Uragon: Use the contact form -- that will post to the board room or similar.
Maxime: Awesome
Uragon: Once it's done, obviously.
Maxime: I'm just glad that it's possible at all Requiring people to CC every founder may not lead to the member actually CCing all founders...
Uragon: Due to the way the forum handles PMs, it's actually very unlikely they would respond to everyone.
Maxime nods
Maxime: Then I can answer your question: yes, that process sounds reasonable and also efficient. Anyway, this may be fine tuned later if need be.
Uragon: Reality will catch up with the details, we just need to agree on the "big picture".
Ravyn the sleep deprived: It's interesting, because if I was interested in a cabal/guild, but had to do so much to get in, I probably wouldn't have joined. But I guess this really keeps it to people who are really into getting in
Ravyn the sleep deprived: and since there will be a limit to members...it'll help
Uragon: You mean you wouldn't have gone through the process of "apply, get interviewed, wait for vote, get accepted"?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: no LOL
Ravyn the sleep deprived: but that is just me
Pluto the Ψiioniic: i probably would have avoided it too unless i had friends in the cabal already
Pluto the Ψiioniic: ....like in AO
Ravyn the sleep deprived: ^^
Pluto the Ψiioniic: i was still hesitant to join OP cause of the interview.....turned out to be kind of fun but the initial reaction remains
Katelin: We shall see how it works - there has to be some way of us controlling who is recruited - so far we know this works, but if we find a better method when we hit launch, we can always come back and re-design our process for recruitment
Hero of Rhyme Axen entered chat.
Hero of Rhyme Axen: hi
Pluto the Ψiioniic: sup dude
Pluto the Ψiioniic: to catch you up we are discussing 9S recruitment
Uragon: Hiya! I know that a longish recruitment process might mean we won't be having a 1000 members immediately at launch, but hopefully the ones that do choose to persevere will be more involved.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: hey Axen
Ravyn the sleep deprived: and maybe we will get friends....just like Pluto said
Ravyn the sleep deprived: those who want to play together
Katelin: Hi Axen
Katelin: And sorry all, but I have to go to sleep now. Hope to read the rest of the log tomorrow nn
Uragon: In OP, those actually usually got a "shorter" treatment as they're basically already known.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: which is what would motivate me to go through the process
Hero of Rhyme Axen: night kate
Katelin disconnected.
Ravyn the sleep deprived: Goodnight kate
Pluto the Ψiioniic: night kate, i am sure Ura will pass it along
Ravyn the sleep deprived: who is logging the conversation?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: ......thats a good question
Pluto the Ψiioniic: i can since i have the whole thing
Hero of Rhyme Axen: not i
Uragon: I have most of it I think, but might have missed bits at the very beginning.
Uragon: Oh according to Kate, not missing anything either.
Pluto the Ψiioniic: lol
Pluto the Ψiioniic: well since you have your heart set on it, I think i will let you have the priviledge of logging the discussion Ura
Uragon: hehe, don't mind one way or the other
Hero of Rhyme Axen: I have no problem not having 100 members
Hero of Rhyme Axen: or 1000
Uragon: I think we'll manage to have 100 easily.
Pluto the Ψiioniic: kind of agree with axen.....though i want to see our name on those leader boards
Pluto the Ψiioniic: few close people is better than 100 acquaintances
Uragon: That's a good goal to aim for -- even if my main reason for these kinds of games is about community building.
Hero of Rhyme Axen: ouro had over 200 members
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I got it opied
Ravyn the sleep deprived: copied
Hero of Rhyme Axen: that was swell, wasn't it?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: rofl
Pluto the Ψiioniic: only 7 about 7 active at any one time
Hero of Rhyme Axen: yeah see, thats the joke
Pluto the Ψiioniic: ....damn typos
Hero of Rhyme Axen: Rav, can you pst what we have thus far?
Hero of Rhyme Axen: or pm me?
Uragon: 200 in an intercontinental cabal is indeed not all that much, a good portion of members tends to just be people that stick around for a few months.
Maxime: I just thought of something tthat could maybe defuse the "intimidating" feeling of the word "interview", for applicants... Can we call it a meeting? They will meet with a X to discuss their application, that's not unreasonable and shows them that we actually care about who we let in... How does that sound to you?
Ravyn the sleep deprived: I'll send you a copy in PM if you want
Pluto the Ψiioniic: meeting is more intimidating that interview.....that means multiple people
Pluto the Ψiioniic: in my mind at least
Maxime: To meet someone is intimidating?... or am I reading this wrong?
Pluto the Ψiioniic: yes....scares the piss out of me every time
Uragon: Meetings in a business sense, I'd guess!
Pluto the Ψiioniic: yeah that
Hero of Rhyme Axen: meeting seems more passive I think
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK PM sent
Maxime: That's what I added "meet someone to discuss their application", so that we can reach exactly the same result without using these scary big words like "interview" or "meeting"
Uragon: Meetings usually mean "sit in a room for a few hours and check your email while someone's talking". But I digress.
Pluto the Ψiioniic: it might just be ol' paranoid me that thinks that then
Corenna: If you say "meet with a recruiter", it will imply a single person
Pluto the Ψiioniic: that sounds better i guess
Uragon: So, I think or hope that we've taken the main stumbling step on our way to get recruitment sorted.
Maxime: If there will be more than one person, then we could say "we will meet you to discuss your application", the "we". Or, more generic, "we will schedule to meet with you to discuss your application".
Ravyn the sleep deprived: OK...I will post the process discussed later today...if anything gets added to the meeting, someone else take notes from here on
Ravyn the sleep deprived: TTYL
Maxime: Aye aye, bye Ravyn